Curse

Chucky333 · Aug 03, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

It's a good idea to include some more newbie-learning stuff before letting them head right into RA but i think you're going at this the wrong way.

I've been in lots of teams in RA that have made 25 wins and had people in them running absolutely crap bars like Endure Pain wammos and MM necros as well as having no basic grasp of PvP (kiting, shieldset, etc).
So if these people can get to 25 wins in RA they will have no problems just routinely getting past Zaishen Challenge\Elite or whatever it is you want to throw at them.

Anyone who was around back then remembers that when you made a new PvP character there used to be some bars that were suggested to you. Looking back they were pretty crap but at this point in time in the game where innovation and creativity are pretty much out of the window and everyone who knows their PvP is running the same bars, you might as well make a big pop-up window when a new PvP character is created, suggesting effective meta bars and also including some usage and equipment tips. This is important since just making it clear for the hordes of newbies and PvE-players who enter RA that they should not use sup runes in most cases and that carrying a shieldset is necessary will make RA 10 times better.

The problem right now as i see it is that there isn't really any sort of casual PvP for the serious PvP community and players. AB and RA are just full of horrible people and are very frustrating for PvP'ers. Having casual PvP where you're not forced to play with terrible players who run terrible bars would go a very long way into decreasing the amount of flaming and abuse that newbies get in RA, which you said is one of the reasons you suggested this, simply because those PvP'ers wouldn't feel RA is the only casual PvP they have and they'd know they can go somewhere else once RA gets too annoying. The answer was always TA and ANet removed it and introduced a dead arena in it's place, if ANet would have actually tried to liven TA up a bit things would have been better, right now, "casual PvP" for PvP'ers means randomway groups in HA or Byob's in GvG and neither is actually casual. Give PvP'ers some casual PvP and then newbies will be able to learn their stuff in RA without getting massacred or flamed.

Ghost Dog · Aug 03, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

It's funny how the people that say the worst things about anet's balancing abilities don't even PvP.

Keep whacking ai monsters all day you clearly have an excuse to bitch all day.

Owik Gall · Aug 03, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I think anet is a bit too soft on the newbie pvpers. When TA was still around there was the match set up system where if you win some amount of plays in RA, you get to go against people from TA. I assume it was like that so newbies can use RA as just a practice without getting flamed by team mates BEFORE the match. They should have made it more like it's serious business and force the players to shape up like juveniles in boot camp. I don't think RA is doing that much justice because it does more to piss off the experienced player than force the idealism of pvp into the newbie's head.

Lanier · Aug 03, 2010, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

They should have made it more like it's serious business and force the players to shape up like juveniles in boot camp.

wow... i seriously can't tell if you are joking or not...
FYI, this is a game...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Owik Gall

I don't think RA is doing that much justice because it does more to piss off the experienced player than force the idealism of pvp into the newbie's head.

Who the hell cares about the idealism of PvP in the lower end pvp. Leave that stuff for the competitive high end aspects of PvP. By the very nature of being random, RA should remain as an arena for casual PvPers or those who dont care about learning your "idealisms", and just want to have some fun.

In my opinion, there should be pvp formats for both competitive PvPers who care about winning, titles, and that stuff, and there should be pvp formats for casual players who like to play with w/e builds and just for fun. RA and a randomized CA would be good for casual players. Competitive players could get a reinstituted TA and HA/GvG.

gremlin · Aug 03, 2010, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I really take to the boot camp analogy because that's exactly what happens a lot of the time.

Your flamed bullied ranted at insulted abused but not by some training sergeant with a view to sending you into battle as prepared as possible.

Your abused by some nomark who has more skill than you and likes throwing his or her weight around.

Its a game, people sometimes want to just have fun without being made to feel small.

Beat them by all means but keep the mental abuse to yourself.

Maver1ck87 · Aug 03, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grumpy Bear

Having a training area or whatever isn't going to make anyone better at HA/GvG, only participating in these formats will do that. And suggesting people go play JQ/FA/FA/RA to improve is just laughable, have you seen how bad the people are that play in those formats.

I do, however, think there should be some sort of training maps for HA. A lot of the times maps are skipped like Forgotten Shrines or the Vault and if newer players make it passed UW and get a skip to these maps they won't know what the hell to do. You could have it where you play v NPCs on each map and not really people that you'd just get annihilated against.

Ummm dude, I hurd the vault was super super hard map... I'm guessing u meant ante chamber cos the vault is just a holding area! Like nothing happens in it, u just wait for halls timer. Also, stupid idea havin training area vs npcs. Firstly it wouldn't improe anyone at all, and secondly, what makes teams better at these maps is NOT knowing some super special tactic but being GOOD and adapting to how their opponeneta try to play the maps and put manouvering them and generally being better, that's fact of guild wars and the nice thing about those maps is that gimicky builds lose on these maps to better players!

Star_Jewel · Aug 03, 2010, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

In my opinion, there should be pvp formats for both competitive PvPers who care about winning, titles, and that stuff, and there should be pvp formats for casual players who like to play with w/e builds and just for fun. RA and a randomized CA would be good for casual players. Competitive players could get a reinstituted TA and HA/GvG.

+1

I'm not much of a PvP'er, only because I'm not very good and would prefer a low-pressure venue in which to learn. As said, JQ/FA/AB are crappy places to learn (though they're the only ones I do, because I can "blend in"). I used to do some RA before it became a Glad-farm, but now I'm scared to death to set foot in there. I know I'd be flamed like crazy. It'd be nice to have an arena that's title-free...though I have my doubts that such a place would be populated. So many players just treat GW like a huge title grind. But maybe Balthazar Faction would be enough to play for, without turning people into raving lunatics...?

Grumpy Bear · Aug 03, 2010, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maver1ck87

Also, stupid idea havin training area vs npcs. Firstly it wouldn't improe anyone at all, and secondly, what makes teams better at these maps is NOT knowing some super special tactic but being GOOD and adapting to how their opponeneta try to play the maps and put manouvering them and generally being better, that's fact of guild wars and the nice thing about those maps is that gimicky builds lose on these maps to better players!

Saying a training area to help newer players learn what to do on rarely seen maps is stupid, is just retarded. Ofc the better teams win on these maps, but those better teams have more exp on those maps. Your whole post basically says better players win at GW when that isn't the point OP was making. Newer players have to start somewhere, and they need pointers and help so they don't fail constantly and eventually become better.

HawkofStorms · Aug 03, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

If it bothers you so much, instead of bitching, why don't you offer to help people/give advice.

If they ignore/insult you (lol noob, I know my flare + kinetic armor build is unstoppable), you can just ignore them.
Every once in a while though, you will find a genuinely deccent person who wants to get better and appreciates your advice

X Ghoul · Aug 03, 2010, 11:31 PM // 23:31

If 90% of r0-r3 groups in HA would not hold hands (ball), just spam skills without watching the field for deaths and would just use common sense (knowing how to counter cap..etc) they would actually win alot of the times. <this statement holds true for at least 50% of the rest of the ranked grps in HA

Regulus X · Aug 04, 2010, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Who the hell cares about the idealism of PvP in the lower end pvp. Leave that stuff for the competitive high end aspects of PvP. By the very nature of being random, RA should remain as an arena for casual PvPers or those who dont care about learning your "idealisms", and just want to have some fun.

In my opinion, there should be pvp formats for both competitive PvPers who care about winning, titles, and that stuff, and there should be pvp formats for casual players who like to play with w/e builds and just for fun. RA and a randomized CA would be good for casual players. Competitive players could get a reinstituted TA and HA/GvG.

Who cares? ME. RA is competitive by default, but too many players with attitudes as you've described ruin it for everyone. Random != balanced, and I think that RA should have some balance enforced by making every team have a healer [by checking for healing/prot attributes/skills in a player's skill bar]. Not learning idealisms means not caring to win, which as I already implied, ruins games! HA and GvG should not be the only formats that have this level of balance and competitiveness. Your post is evidently inclined to this notion. I think that making RA much like TA, except for keeping the random assembly of teams, is best for our only truly active 4v4 arena left [Codex Arena = dead]. It'd be best if players learned whats best in builds instead of just throw random skills and charge right in as they currently do in RA. They often don't get past the first couple matches unless they get "carried" by the better players who have supreme utility and damage.

Lanier · Aug 04, 2010, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

Who cares? ME. RA is competitive by default, but too many players with attitudes as you've described ruin it for everyone. Random != balanced, and I think that RA should have some balance enforced by making every team have a healer [by checking for healing/prot attributes/skills in a player's skill bar]. Not learning idealisms means not caring to win, which as I already implied, ruins games! HA and GvG should not be the only formats that have this level of balance and competitiveness. Your post is evidently inclined to this notion. I think that making RA much like TA, except for keeping the random assembly of teams, is best for our only truly active 4v4 arena left [Codex Arena = dead]. It'd be best if players learned whats best in builds instead of just throw random skills and charge right in as they currently do in RA. They often don't get past the first couple matches unless they get "carried" by the better players who have supreme utility and damage.

Ok then... it is for players like you that i am suggestion reinstating TA. That way those who think players who dont care to win "ruin games" can play in the competitive formats and those who dont care so much and just want to have fun can play in the lower end formats. I dont care if you want to play with your ideologies and playstyles but I dont want you ruining my fun. Is it such a big deal for competitive players to have an arena and non-competitive or casual players to stick to the low-end PvP?

Regulus X · Aug 04, 2010, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Ok then... it is for players like you that i am suggestion reinstating TA. That way those who think players who dont care to win "ruin games" can play in the competitive formats and those who dont care so much and just want to have fun can play in the lower end formats. I dont care if you want to play with your ideologies and playstyles but I dont want you ruining my fun. Is it such a big deal for competitive players to have an arena and non-competitive or casual players to stick to the low-end PvP?

If you derive "fun" from losing to constant and consistently winning teams of 1-2 monks and heavy dpsers, that's your affliction. I choose what's best for the majority, not the few [you]. It is the few that burden good players by taking Orison of healing, or seven arbitrary attack skills that cost energy and have short recharges on warriors, or flare/meteor rangers with two preparations, a flatbow and Barrage, or necromancers with domination/inspiration spells of 2+ second recharge, or Paragons... ... or dervishes... ... or monks with daggers... ... They all cause the good players grief, and as a result some of those affected players either ragequit the arena, the game entirely, or simply choose to give RAers a taste of their own medicine [trolling with running/stalling/shadowstepping/AotL+ die builds/armorless builds/resign-denying/report-abusing/etc.].

NocturnalLunacy · Aug 04, 2010, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Okay everyone, please do not get off topic. The suggestion wasn't just for any certain PVP arena like RA or HA or whatever. I am suggesting for all PVP. I remember I had to earn my way to HA and TA etc. I had to do the Zmissions and now players do not have to. But I can say from my own experience thru failure how to play at PVP better. And now I do PVP regularly and rarely die. But I am tired of going to RA and can't win more than one match at a time because my team mates want to go 1v1 with the tanks or dervs or whatever instead of going after the monk first. It's been a very long time since I have had a good team in RA. In HA all your teammates want you to run certain builds that they like and most of the time the build sux, has no energy management etc. and if you won't run their build then they kick you from the team and if you're in a non PVP guild you have to rely on joining teams in HA in order to do HA and you still get bad teams no matter how leet they try to claim they are. And using PVXWiki builds? If you have to use builds from PVX then maybe you should learn how to make a build and maybe you're not as experienced as you think you are. I'm guilty of calling players noobs so I kind of know of the frustration of inexperienced PVP players. I don't flame players with noob constantly but every now and then someone may do something so idiotic and illogical that I'm like WTF are you doing noob? I've even been banned for 3 days for making comments to a person like that.

Sirius Bsns · Aug 04, 2010, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

Okay everyone, please do not get off topic. The suggestion wasn't just for any certain PVP arena like RA or HA or whatever. I am suggesting for all PVP. I remember I had to earn my way to HA and TA etc. I had to do the Zmissions and now players do not have to. But I can say from my own experience thru failure how to play at PVP better. And now I do PVP regularly and rarely die. But I am tired of going to RA and can't win more than one match at a time because my team mates want to go 1v1 with the tanks or dervs or whatever instead of going after the monk first. It's been a very long time since I have had a good team in RA. In HA all your teammates want you to run certain builds that they like and most of the time the build sux, has no energy management etc. and if you won't run their build then they kick you from the team and if you're in a non PVP guild you have to rely on joining teams in HA in order to do HA and you still get bad teams no matter how leet they try to claim they are. And using PVXWiki builds? If you have to use builds from PVX then maybe you should learn how to make a build and maybe you're not as experienced as you think you are. I'm guilty of calling players noobs so I kind of know of the frustration of inexperienced PVP players. I don't flame players with noob constantly but every now and then someone may do something so idiotic and illogical that I'm like WTF are you doing noob? I've even been banned for 3 days for making comments to a person like that.

In RA, unless you have Whirling Axe, Forceful Blow, etc., and/or count the monk's balanced stance [hoping he doesn't have Dolyaks as well], you're not going to be able to kill the monk unless ofc you have a faceroll E-Wrack mesmer camping him and depleting his energy, or something as pressure-effective as it. I usually go for mesmers first, and maybe other squishies, because they sometimes don't carry block. I also camp on warriors to prevent them from knocking down my monk, so I knock-lock him for a while. It creates a false sense of security within the monk until I'm charged up enough to force the monk to waste his Bonettis, temp swap, then get back on him and hop he's also used his anti-kd so I can Dev Hammer + OB Smash him and win.

Terrible Surgeon · Aug 04, 2010, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Also, most of the "inexperienced" players you are talking about aren't really inexperienced, they just refuse to use builds from pvx wiki.
I have people all the time tell me to uninstall the game until I get a "better" build. Yet, they are the ones that always die first. (and no, I don't have a griefer build thats designed to stay alive)

And then I wind up getting most of my team's kills cuz since my builds aren't from wiki, people can't pre-counter it by using the opposing build.
Yet, I'm somehow the "noob" that needs to uninstall.

I'll say 90% of good builds are not on wiki. Wiki if anything should be used to give ideas of what composes a decent build and how a build should function in a certain arena [gvg-ra-ha].
Point being, new people need to learn a little before they dive in. I remember having to unlock HA and TA by doing certain things in other areas of the battle isles. I think it is beneficial to new players to know something before just winging any pvp in GW. Otherwise, the game experience the new players have will more than likely be poorer because of player harassment and lack of success which can lead to frustration and rage quitting. I want to see new players succeed, not get flamed and quit a game before they get a good grasp on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

If it bothers you so much, instead of bitching, why don't you offer to help people/give advice.

If they ignore/insult you (lol noob, I know my flare + kinetic armor build is unstoppable), you can just ignore them.
Every once in a while though, you will find a genuinely deccent person who wants to get better and appreciates your advice

You cant help everyone, I can't help everyone...enough said. Making a training ground or "boot camp" other than Zelite would be a good idea.

Lanier · Aug 04, 2010, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

If you derive "fun" from losing to constant and consistently winning teams of 1-2 monks and heavy dpsers, that's your affliction. I choose what's best for the majority, not the few [you]. It is the few that burden good players by taking Orison of healing, or seven arbitrary attack skills that cost energy and have short recharges on warriors, or flare/meteor rangers with two preparations, a flatbow and Barrage, or necromancers with domination/inspiration spells of 2+ second recharge, or Paragons... ... or dervishes... ... or monks with daggers... ... They all cause the good players grief, and as a result some of those affected players either ragequit the arena, the game entirely, or simply choose to give RAers a taste of their own medicine [trolling with running/stalling/shadowstepping/AotL+ die builds/armorless builds/resign-denying/report-abusing/etc.].

Way to blow what i said completely out of proportion. Its hilarious how often, someone will suggest not running the meta builds for fun and others automatically assume they would like to run flare/firestorm monks or dagger-wielding mesmers. I certainly hope you had fun with your exaggerations.

Anyway... What I was suggestion was seperate arenas like there used to be. TA could be where competitive players go to try to win and random formats like RA (and ideally a randomized CA) could be where non-competitive players go to have fun (and before you start... fun doesnt necessarily mean playing a bloodspike build on a paragon...). Now I'll ask you once again, how is that a bad thing? You can stick to your competitive formats and ignore all the "noobs" (aka the noncompetitive people) that you wish.

El Perma Shadow · Aug 04, 2010, 02:09 PM // 14:09

IDEA: Why not create a guild and alliance to TEACH these newbies so you can actually have a decent game just pick people up and ask them "you want to join a guild pvp-based that has practices? It helped improve my skill it might help improve yours."

chuckles79 · Aug 04, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Better idea even yet; why don't the people here, when they do RA and see a newb, inform said newb of Pvxwiki and suggest they play some meta builds until they are confident enough to make their own build changes.
Trial and Error; that's how you learned, that's how I learned, and it's how everyone in every game has learned how to play.
As for synchers and hardcore Pvp'ers with low ping connections; don't play RA.
I don't anymore. I started RA/TA back when monks an assassins both had great playability. Now assassins are gimmick builds and monks have a giant kickme sign.

*lemming* · Aug 04, 2010, 08:53 PM // 20:53

If they're motivated, they'll find their own way of getting into PvP. If they're not, it'll just be an even bigger barrier to add more requirements.